MartinLogan CLSIIz+McIntosh+Atma-Sphere

by nsgarch on Ever Evolving

Description

A few minor changes for 2012, but first:

When I first put this system together in 1991-2, I was driving the Martin Logan CLS electrostats with a pair of 140W Audio Research M300 MkII triode monoblocks. The "subs" were a pair of Wilson Puppies driven by a Mark Levinson 23.5 through a Bryston 10B x-over. Later on, I sold the Puppies and the x-over and bought Kinergetics SW 800 subwoofers that were designed to match the CLS's (the "Mini Statement" system.) I never really liked them ;--( I recently moved into an apartment and sold all the Kinergetics stuff and my beloved ARC amps due to space limitations. Began driving the CLS's with the ML 23.5 (very nice) and was resigned to listening to the CLS's with whatever bass they could muster.

When Martin Logan introduced their own subs, I could tell from the physical layout of the three opposing woofers that they had potential, plus I just couldn't imagine Martin Logan putting more sluggish subwoofers on the market;--) I'd been an advocate of "two subwoofers" mostly for easier placement rather than for "stereo bass". But first I thought I'd buy just one ML Depth and see how it sounded. I put it in the middle, crossed over at a mere 35Hz. Incredible! Fast and seamless, just like the Puppies. The omnidirectional woofer arrangement really makes two units unnecessary for good imaging, unless you need more poop.

Four years ago, I bought a new McIntosh MC-275 MkIV in order to drive the stats with tubes again, and it's fantastic! (See my post below.) The Purist cabling and the Depth sub really completed my system to where I'm not making any changes. I have been trying different headphone gear lately -- just for fun!

So now it's summer of 2102, and due to the untimely death of an audiophile friend last year, I had the opportunity to try out some of his very fine equipment, before liquidating it for his family. Only one piece of equipment really 'stuck', and that was an Atma-Sphere MP-3 tube preamp. It is a fully balanced differential Class A design with an all-tube phonostage; 'all-tube' meaning no FET's and no step-up transformers! I'd always wanted to try a tube phonoamp, and I'd always wanted to hear what an MC cartridge (a 'balanced output' device) would sound like when amplified by a phonoamp with balanced inputs. So I got to hear both things at the same time! And now it's time for my incredible Levinson 25s phonoamp and 26s preamp to go to a new audiophile ;~) As a famous Guru said, "Once you get the message, you hang up the phone!"

So for the first time in eight years (2004, when I replaced my ARC SP-14 preamp with the Levinson 25s/26s) my system sounds brand new again! Unfortunately my own body just keeps getting older, so this might be the last time the audio system changes ;~)
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Components Toggle details

    • Atma-Sphere MP-3 with phono
    Finally, a tube phonostage with balanced inputs; MC cartridge heaven! Replaced Levinson 25s/26s. I never thought that would happen ;~)
    • Mcintosh MC275 Mk IV -- Shuguang Treasure KT88Z power tubes
    Same as the Mk V (the latest 'un-leaded' version) with XLR inputs, detachable PC, and bigger power transformer. Current power tubes are even (slightly) better than my NOS Gold Lions; and only cost $400! The amp itself is a bargain, and its 95w/ch sound is delicious ;-)
    • HeadRoom Home Balanced Headphone Amp
    Drives headphones balanced! 'Crossfeed' feature eliminates 'hole-in-the-middle' effect common with headphone listening. Solid state.
    • Melos SHA-1
    The classic tube headphone amp/preamp from Melos. Better sonics than my HeadRoom unit ;~)
    • Goldmund Studietto Mk II turntable
    It's on a Target wall shelf. Has the JVC quartz-lock motor, Goldmund cones, van den Hul zirconium spindle oil. Replaced the springs with Pandafeet sorbothane isolators -- no resonance, no noise, great bass, direct drive rules!!
    • SME Series V tonearm
    Bought in 1990. Factory serviced in 2004 and installed new van den Hul MC-150S internal silver wiring.
    • Transfiguration Temper W MC cartridge
    0.5mV output, new double ring magnet (yokeless) design. Stunning fit 'n finish. Now broken after 150 hours. It produces an amazing black background against a sparkling top to bottom neutrality, with great transient response and holographic imaging.
    • Purist Audio Venustas Phono interconnect
    It's totally to die for! -- Increases the sonic value of your cartridge by $5000.
    • Wadia WT-2000 PS-2 CD transport
    Wadia's Esoteric Transport w/ the upgraded VRDS heavy-duty Teac platter.
    • Aural Symphonics Optimism V.2 ST glass optical cable
    If you don't have AT&T inputs/outputs on your digital gear necessary for using this glass digital datalink, then you're missing an unsurpassed musical experience from your CDs!
    • Wadia 27 DAC
    Sounds great w/ the AS Optimism 2 glass cable. May consider GNSC mods later on.
    • Nakamichi CR-7A audiophile cassette
    Basically, a Dragon that doesn't reverse (Thank God!) Bought it new with mics and mixer yet!! Analog rules!!
    • McIntosh MR65B stereo FM tube tuner
    Bought it (very) used in 2007 and had it refurbished. Total $700, more than 2X 1962 retail! Amazing sound.
    • Martin Logan CLS IIz full range electrostat
    Owned these starting in 1991 (as CLS II's) Installed new panels 3/11 and they sound better than ever! The Sound Anchor stands improve both the bass (cleaner) and the mid/highs (transient response.) What a difference!
    • Sound Anchor CLS speaker stand
    They get the CLS's off the floor for better staging and keep the panels from rocking, improving the transients (even when I thought they couldn't get any better!)
    • Martin Logan Depth subwoofer
    Better transient response (faster) than the (larger) Descent due to it's smaller, lighter woofers. See my remarks below.
    • Purist Audio Venustas RCA and XLR interconnects
    RCA (1.5m) connects phono preamp to preamp. XLR (8m - 25 feet) connects preamp to amp.
    • Straightwire Maestro RCA
    An 8m pair preamp to subwoofer.
    • Purist Audio Venustas 2.5m speaker cables
    My last speaker cables!
    • PAD Venustas/Dominus, Aural Thrills and Audio Metallurgy power cords
    Purist for the amp and CDT, other stuff elsewhere.
    • ExactPower EP-15A / SP-15A power units
    The EP is a power regenerator. It supplies the amp, sub, speakers, and the SP balanced power unit. The SP supplies the source devices.
    • Studiotech Performance Series shelf systems
    One of audio's best bangs. Price includes shipping. Easy to assemble, great looking and solid!

Comments 157

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Owner
Blasphemy? Oh dear! I'll tell you what I am going to do this summer (when it gets a little warmer here in TooStoned ;--) I'm going to (after twenty years!) wash my CLS-IIz panels and see if there's any improvement (not that I'm unhappy now -- but I've no way to tell if the performance has "drifted" (down) over the ears. If there's no change (for the better) I can perceive, I really won't know what to do!? If I can spare $1500, I may (1.) buy some new generation panels, and (2.) make some improvements(?) to the electronics interface -- but Jim Power @ MartinLogan, whom I've know personally, practically since the company began, says I don't have to do either of those things, because the speakers have always been in a high and dry environment for all 20 years.

Unlike a lot of company guys, Jim has always been very candid (with me anyway) and I feel like I should listen to him. But I've also heard so many good things from folks who've "done stuff" to their old CLS's, that I'm left feeling anxious and conflicted -- Oy! I hope those people are not simply suffering from "emperor's new clothes" syndrome ;--)

nsgarch

"I'd own a pair of full-range Soundlabs."
Blasphemy

gregadd

Owner
If I had my d'ruthers (and more room and more money ;--) I'd own a pair of full-range Soundlabs. I would also consider the new ML CLX, but I haven't actually heard them yet.

Neil

nsgarch

I also like electrostats. For me, the Merlins are the closest thing I can find that gives me a lot of the magic of electrostats and do not sacrifice dynamics. I know the 275 loves electrostats. I always liked the Quads but they lacked dynamics, soundstage height, and could not reproduce all of the kinds of music that I listen to in a convincing manner. For most classical and classic jazz, they really shine. The Logans are also great speakers but were not available anymore locally when I was looking to purchase speakers. The smaller Logans are not near as good as what you have. For the money, the Merlins can really give you a great performance and in many ways, may be the best mini monitor that I have heard so far. They do not go real deep but they do have an addictive sound that gets me close to the venue.

tzh21y

Owner
Thanks, TZ. I'm not going to go all the way back ;--) but around 20 years ago (1989), I pretty much got rid of my entire system, the result of 30 years of judicious system building begun in 1959. Then I spent about $60K on a dream system (which in 1989 dollars was pretty damn dreamy!) This system is the current incarnation of that 1989 system. The TT, TA, speakers, CDT are all 20 years old, and there's no reason to replace any of them. All other elements of the system have been mostly 'updated' (as opposed to 'upgraded') to later, improved versions of the original items.

I like that you perceived the 'synergy' in my system, because a lot of people don't really 'get' that aspect of system composition. And though it wouldn't satisfy other preferences, the structure of this system -- meaning the choices of what kinds (not brands) of elements I would select to achieve my own sonic objectives, was established at the outset; was based on my experiences of the previous thirty years, and my increased technical understanding, and the following key points have remained constant since then:

* only ss preamplification
* only ss phono preamplification
* only tube amplification, for
* full-range electrostatic main speakers (no hybrids!)
* ss-powered sub (kept under 35 hz) and only one sub, never two
* ultra-low capacitance cables -- especially speaker cables
* same make/model cabling throughout the system including PC's
* balanced interconnects wherever possible
* software for digital decoding; no 'brick wall' filters (leaves only Wadia ;--)
* only MC cartridges, but with a minimum 0.5 mV output and only line contact styli
* all drivers (except subs) minimum 10" from floor.
* dedicated AC circuit when possible, power regenerator otherwise, no conditioners
* never leave tube equipment running unattended, no exceptions
* disconnect entire system from the power grid when thuderstorms are possible, or when going away for more than the five-day weather outlook.

nsgarch

One thing I will say is that even if I ever do decide to sell either the pre or the amp, it will still be worth something. Also, the newer Mac gear sounds very good to my ears at least. I do know what people are talking about when they put McIntosh down because I was one of them. It is true that at one time they lost their direction. However, I have heard other niche market gear and I still think the new Mac stuff is at least as good if not better than most. The sound to me is "just right". People are looking for so much detail that they have never heard the real thing. Mac stuff to me sounds like the real thing or as close as I have ever heard. Customer service and support is the best that there is as well. Can't beat it. Is there better, maybe, but at what price? Probably 3 times what I paid for my system. I can tell by looking at your sysytem that you too know real value in components. You would have to pay tons more for better sound than you already have. You could probably spend a lot more and still not get as good as what you have :) it looks like you have great synergy as I have heard many of the components that you have in your system. Well Done!

tzh21y

Owner
TZ -- If the amp is still within the three-year warranty period, it is your dealer's responsibility to get it checked, serviced, or even replaced!

I have never run my own MC275 UNBAL. So just now, for the heck of it, I switched the input switch from BAL to UNBAL, with the music going, and got total silence -- (even w/ the vol. at max.) which is what the schematic would predict. Over the weekend, I'll try a number of different 12AX7/5751's in V-1 position to see if that makes any difference to the (BAL) sound. I'll let you know.

I agree that, even at retail, the MC275 is the best (tube) amp bargain in audio; which is all the more impressive because when a piece of (new) equipment says "McIntosh" on the front, you can usually find something as good or even better for the same money ;--))!!

Neil

nsgarch

I got it from a McIntosh dealer. It was the floor model and they gave me a good deal on it. The best investment I ever made in audio.

tzh21y

Owner
Did you get your amp from a private party, a dealer, AudioClassics, etc.? Try and find out its history. Go to this page http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/owners/default.asp and contact Chuck Hinton.

nsgarch

it is so obvious that if I use a tele, rca, siemens, or whatever, the somic signature of that tube is clearly obvious. I still have not heard from anyone regarding my email

tzh21y

Owner
Tz, I also have a Mk4, and the choice of V-1 tube has no affect on the sound in the BAL mode. Heck, I've even used 12AX7's with one dead triode (but with a working filament) in the V-1 spot and the amp worked just fine in BAL mode.

So at this point, I really do think you should have someone look at it.

nsgarch

It is a Mark IV then. It does have the removable power cord.

tzh21y

I was told by a fellow Audiogoner that you know about loading plugs, Flam61 (Grant Johnson) gave me your name.

I have a George Wright phono stage P200 with a Dynavector Moving Coil XH20 the has a output of 2.8. I was told that you knew about "loading" and might be able to recommend the proper loading plugs.

How would this change my over all sound?
Thank you for reading my email.

Richard

zeal

Owner
If your amp has a removable power cord, it's either a Mk4 or Mk5. If it has modern speaker cable binding posts, andno input attenuators for the UNBAL inputs, it's a Mk5, if it has barrier strips with little terminals between the plastic "barriers", andinput level controls for the UNBAL inputs, then it's a Mk4. If it has a fized power cord and barrier strip speaker cable teminal, it's a CE.

nsgarch

I would not know if it is that version. How would I know. I know it is an earlier model. It was used as a demo that was hardly ever used. They said they did have it for quite some time. I know that the balance inputs are gold plated. How would i know the difference? It was on a display stand in the reference room for quite some time. I guess I could check the serial numbers. I was starting to question my hearing.

tzh21y

Owner
Oh now I remember! A similar discussion took place on the Audiokarma McIntosh forum because (as best I can remember) someone was getting signal "bleed-through" between the balanced and unbalanced inputs on his NEW Anniversary MC75 monos. It was the first time EVER that the MC75's were made with BAL inputs, which were indeed tied to the UNBAL input circuit regardless of the switch position. The same is true (I'll double-check at some point) of the FIRST MC275 WITH BAL INPUTS, the Gordon Gow Commemorative Edition (MC275ce) Is that the model 275 you have?

Because, if you have either of the two current models of the MC275 -- the Mk4, or the Mk5, the BAL and UNBAL are not tied together in any way. In fact, one way of defeating the input signal to those two amps, is to switch the slide switch to the UNUSED input position and you shouldn't hear anything no matter how high you crank the volume -- I know, I've done it!

So if you have either of the latest 275 models, and you're getting bleed through between the balanced and unbalanced inputs (meaning the V-1 is somehow involved) I would strongly suggest it go back to the factory to be checked out.

nsgarch

We were discussing whether V1 on the 275 will influence the sound while listening to the balanced inputs. I used a stock tube, a telefunken, and a Siemens NOS tube in V1. Each tube sounded similar to the sonic characteristics associated with that tube. Even though the schematic does not indicate V1 in the signal path while listning to balanced cables there is some voodoo going on. I have emailed Mcintosh for an explanation.

tzh21y

Owner
TZ, I seem to have lost the 'thread' here ;--) Could you please refresh my failing memory regarding your V-1 experiments (with your MC275?) Thanks,

Neil
.

nsgarch

I just tried it and their is a difference (V1). Not subtle either. I put in a stock and the bass was overblown and music was pushed forward. Then I put a Siemens ecc83 in its place. The bass was tighter and music was more relaxed. I know you think I am crazy but try it. Now this is 2nd type i've had in there. The last one was a telefunken smooth plate. The smooth plate was not as detailed as the Siemens or as articulate in the bass region.

tzh21y

I went back to the balanced connection. So far so good. Will be trying the V1 thing today

tzh21y

My previos amp was the CJ Premier 11a.
I have not heard the Atlas yet.
If I could use one word to describe the moscode it would be articulate. Notes attack and decay from black background I wouldn't call it the ideal amp for CLS. However it allows the CLS qualities to shine.

gregadd

Owner
Anti Cables have two very attractive electrical attributes (as far as their use as speaker cables goes):
1.) Physically separating the plus and minus runs (to each speaker) almost completely eliminates capacitance and inductance. The first is good for electrostats, and the second is good for clean bass.
2.) Solid core conductors reduce 'skin effect' one of the things that can produce 'time smear'.

Virtual Dynamics cables, and Purist's new Provectus line both employ these principals to great advantage, at a higher price, while providing some other advantages over Anti Cables such as lower resistance, ease of use, and better electrical and mechanical shielding.

I you just want to do a 'dry run' for almost no money, to see if this type of cable might hold promise in your system by picking up some (red and black ;--) insulated 10 gauge (or larger) copper wire at Home Depot. If it's going to make a difference, that will definitely let you know.

nsgarch

I am thinking of trying the anti-cables. I have heard very good things about them

tzh21y

Owner
Greg, I can't recall what your amp was before the Moscode, but you seem to be very happy with it so far. I'm going to read the Atlas review tonight, but I take it you haven't heard one in your system, right?

nsgarch

I am writing from a hand held device. I will be succinct.
ML panels give me detail that is ruthless. It is not a question of will your panels last. But are the new panels better? IMO they are significantly better.
"Better is the enemy of good." They are pretty much broken in.
The Atlas is a hybrid and balanced. @$8k vs $6.5k for the moscode. The moscode does some things almost real.
All I can say is I reccomend both very highly.
I will say more when I get back to my computer.

O

gregadd

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