Air, Magnets, String & Tape

Chris,

Noticed that one pic showed you still using the pulley system with your thread-drive TNT. As you know, I eliminated it when I went to thread drive. A mistake??

Dave

dlcockrum October 08, 2016 09:55

Chris,

Holy cow! Sensory overload! I need a month of complete isolation to absorb it all. One (of the thousand) thing(s) that caught my eye was the "straight shot" ET Two wiring loom. Get that from Gene at TakeFiveAudio? Great guy, Gene. He was instrumental in helping me select and assemble my loom. I would like to know more about the straight shot.

Where do you go from here, Chris?

In awe,

Dave

dlcockrum October 08, 2016 09:48

Owner

Hi Dan

The prevailing message in my system description is that. ... the "Gear" is just a means to the end. Blessed is the music lover that reaches the end point without spending thousands. If this person frequents Audiogon .......good luck to you. :^)

Some hindsight in reaching the end based on my personal experience.

Once you have a 2 channel stereo system "kit" that is at a point that sounds great to you in your room. Move that kit in whole including all cabling to 3 or 4 different rooms and see what happens.......:^)

The room ......is indeed the Elephant.

Happy Listening

ct0517 October 03, 2016 09:13

Hello Chris,

It's good to see you're still chugging along. I'm reminded again of what an impressive assortment of gear you've acquired, and your investment in becoming so knowledgeable about it.

You're my hero! (I'm not kidding!)

Regards,

Dan

islandmandan September 30, 2016 12:46

Owner

Updates !!

My system description and some thoughts. So I got a little corny.... Maybe this comes with age ?

Some New Pics - including..... Koaltar and Bee Bee (my daughters Bengal)

See 2nd and 3rd last pictures, next to the last picture of the Quad room.

*******************************************************************************

So getting prepared for colder weather serious listening for late 2016

>>>>> into 2017 (God willing)

and re-starting my Records Reorganization Project

(see 2nd picture but with warning - it is not a pretty site) A daunting task?

This reorganizations objectives, which include my wife not finally trying to do me in (divorcing me), is in order to do more learning of composers, their music, and the music enjoyment that will come from that :^)

This will also be a welcome change from the summer time music I have mostly been listening to up north - the kind that goes well with Beer and Campfires.

Re: the thread - How to Best Organize the Classical Record Collection.

Look for updates on how I am dealing with the challenges that only a Classical Record Collection brings (whether your collection is vinyl, digital or both)

Happy Listening.

ct0517 September 30, 2016 06:42

Owner

Added updated pics of my "in progress" LP reorganization project.

I am getting there. I also started a thread to give me better ideas on how to organize the classical music. It has been very helpful.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/best-ways-to-organize-a-classical-record-lp-collection

Happy Listening.

ct0517 April 28, 2016 06:38

Owner

Likewise Dan. Its too bad for all the virtual communications with many Audio buddies due to the distances. But we also know "virtual" means we have all made Audio Buddies around the world. AudioGon virtual systems help to bridge the gap.

Speaking of buddies; my bud Koaltar is forced to listen from the head of the stairs. Just too many hairs unfortunately. This is too bad because he would just park himself next to me and not move. Probably add in some dampening with his 77 lbs. My daughters' Bengal kitty has been in both rooms. As a kitten she would use the rows of vinyl in Room A as a highway which was kind of cool to watch as she stepped over Beethoven, then Miles. then N Young, then A Winehouse to N Merchant, ......:^)

But now she is just too fast and can get into too much trouble especially with the Verdier/ET 2.5 turntable setup which is on a longer low platform only 17 inches off the floor. I have seen her jump 4 feet so this represents a real danger. Nothing like a cat taking out your turntable/cartridge. She likes long string :^(

re: Dynaudio BM12s

We know we are at the mercy of the sound engineer on every recording we listen to. The BM12s are able to do four presets with the remote from the listening position to compensate for different music genres - good and bad recordings (i.e. too much or too little bass). The remote allows for selection of crossover point, and phase control, db level, extension, all from the listening position. Just push one of four presets when done. No more need for an audio friend to adjust the sub settings, and then you scream at him

" that's it, stop there ! ". Its a one person operation now. Its db levels are a push of the (+) or (-) button, the light blinks once which means 1 db up or down. You have a range of 20 db with it.

In contrast, Room A's Matrix 800 speaker system is a passive 4 sub system - Two high subs two low for 2 channel music. Two sets of bass waves go out canceling each other - leaving behind musical notes. The speakers looks intimidate but they are very room friendly. You can unplug the top woofer to see how much effect it has on the room. I could probably move them back toward the front wall more with no bass issues, but this would obviously reduce the music depth.

ct0517 March 04, 2016 08:07

Chris, it's great to hear about your BM12 subs score. Subs have made a very positive change in my listening room, improving on my connection with music, making it a deeper (no pun intended) and better experience.

Hope all is well. Still wish we weren't half a continent apart, I'd love to hear your system(s).

Best regards,

Dan

islandmandan March 02, 2016 15:11

Owner

Quad 57 Room B Subwoofers Result

I found Two New Old Stock (NOS) - Dynaudio Acoustics BM12s in a recording studio. Never out of the boxes.On paper for my needs they are; 18hz - 60 hz with 4th order Linwitz- Riley crossovers.

Linkwitz-Riley crossovers match attenuation slopes so that system response is flat at crossover point.
Butterworth crossovers yield to a peak at the crossover frequency.
Bessel crossovers have a frequency response between Linkwitz-Riley and Butterworth crossovers.

So the Dynaudio BM12s crossovers have a flat response where cutoff is applied. This, plus being a sealed box design made them appear to be a really good match for my Wayne PK Quad 57's. Quick and no cone bass past 60 hz. They house 250 watt amps @4 ohms which from the size of the heat sinks I assume is Class A/B. Most of the other subs I looked at were high wattage Class D designs..

The numbers matched up, so I made the drive out there. I brought the two home and tried them out. I did find them very punchy, clean, and quick. They go really low and keep up with the 57's on kick drums and other low bass. A good ergonomic match (to my eyes) with my raised Wayne PK Quad 57's. The subs are placed under them with the woofer cones forward of the actual Quad 57 panels - for now. This sets the sub phase alignment at "0"

here is what the set up looks like.

https://goo.gl/photos/FKfPst7tZSmDMUhV8

I am not able to preview a post on the system thread. if the direct link doesn't work see the last bottom picture of my virtual system page - the one to the right of the Bengal kitty :^). .

The Dynaudio's use a thick credit card sized remote control for configuring them. ( don't lose it ).

A little strange how all this came about. This was a good 6 month plus search. The Dynaudio BM12s were a real dark horse that just appeared out of the blue toward the end. For those following, the other subs I was seriously considering were JL Audio, REL, Rhythmik and Seaton. Rhythmik and Seaton are very hard to find used in Canada, and I was not willing to pay 30 points on the Canada US dollar difference, plus shipping, customs and duties on them for new ones. I did manage to find a used Seaton Submersive for sale; but when I went to hear it, I found out it had issues with the original smaller Seaton amp it came with clipping. This was revealed to me by the owner who had the smaller amp exchanged for the larger Seaton amp. But this meant the condition of the driver's voice coil was suspect. I passed on it. The only REL sub I would buy are the older ones Made in the UK. This means their physical condition would be ?? and repairs would need to be made at a third party repair shop. So knowing the previous owner/s is important

The Recording Studio gave me a warranty on the two NOS Dynaudio BM12s. Room B is pretty much complete now as far as gear goes. Maybe I will I start finishing touches on the actual room.

ct0517 March 01, 2016 16:10

Owner

Quad 57 Room B Subwoofer Project Update

Would welcome comments from members who are familiar with the various drivers types and amps for subwoofers. (Plate amps versus external ones?)

The Requirement - Two nearfield subs, on both sides of my listening position to be used 50 hz and down. A picture of the space has been uploaded to my virtual system link showing previous subs locations and the current location that is working really well.

So been in research mode reviewing both finished products various brands and the DIY route. Vandersteen was deleted as its design requires one to go through its crossover first before the Music Reference RM10 amp. I discovered that REL have moved operations to China and their former employees in England have started up MJ Acoustics. It remains an option used. JL Audio is powering my sons standalone two woofer box in his vehicle :^).

I have found a local Carpenter / Speaker builder that has a good reputation and builds nice looking boxes, lots of finishes to spec. He could do the whole thing or I would assemble the Driver and Plate Amp to the boxes he builds. Seems like a plug and play thing, no brainer ? Am I wrong ? This would make the Rythmik products very attractive - if not for our dollar, shipping customs, etc... :^(

on a sidenote

As a url link happy forum poster I have been told by Audiogon that the links in my thread here will be restored so they work. Its on the schedule. But the main forums are the priority understandably.

ct0517 December 19, 2015 06:13

Owner

A big thank you to Tammy and the AudioGon staff team (web developers) for helping me to get my virtual system under control. The new format for some reason caused it to explode - some entries and pictures were repeated as many as 20 times. My virtual systems page has been edited and cleaned up.

As a poster who really likes to include links and pictures in his posts; I am hoping the (url link) feature is restored here, along with the ability to see the previous url links, from previous posts, mine and others. Happy Listening

ct0517 December 06, 2015 09:04

Owner

Have any audiogon members with virtual systems, checked out their virtual system on the new Beta system going live at the end of the month ? Those who happen to come upon mine, if you can find it, will not be faulted for thinking they have entered into the Dog World Forum.

Yup - its true. Seems my Bud Koaltar is now my main system page and I can't move him. Sort of like walking him sometimes. I think someone on the Audiogon staff likes dogs. Cool. Some of the emails between us were very funny - lol. You may have noticed my last few pic links on this thread were from Google and not Audiogon. I love pictures to make a point. The Beta Virtual System has not only made Koaltar the Alpha over me; its also duplicated the many attachments I stored there which were sorted into categories to help with posts on forums. :^(

ct0517 November 22, 2015 06:53

Owner

Bdp24 - One of the great things about the LFT is it's main panel reproducing such a large portion of the sound of music, without a x/o in the 275Hz-10kHz range.
Yeah.
I originally bought the ET speakers for a space in Toronto (born and raised there). I was spending quite a bit of time down there with work and care of elderly parents. The guy I had bought my ET Lft8a from was living in a place with a shared thin wall to the neighbor. He had to disconnect the woofers at night when listening and the reason he was selling them. This (listening without the woofers) would not have been possible without the main & tweeter panels reproducing so much of the music as you say Eric. They sounded so good down there that I had to bring them home to hear. Everything ends up going through Room A with me :^) and mostly nearfield. That Room A has not only probably (so far) saved my marriage, but also thousands and thousands of audiophile dollars. When you have a dedicated space ,and you get the audiophile itch; all you have to do is move the speakers around and you are saying - Holy crap what a difference (maybe good - maybe bad) lol ... if good .....you are set for the next few months. Get bored again ...move the speakers placements to the other end of the room. I did this for 10 years ! hell maybe more. All my audio buddies were frequent flyers with speaker wires, interconnects, amps, what have you.... All I did was move the speakers around ! Makes you realize very quickly what the most important thing is in an audio room. The Room. well ..plus the truntable with it fragile wires. The speakers, amps moved....The TT, its wires, preamp stayed put. Never put your TT in the a corner....

It also makes you realize never finish a room acoustically without your speakers in the Room first. Some guys build these elaborate empty rooms, and they have no idea what speakers are going in ---- can you believe it ? Hell , the Matrix 800's affect the sonics of a room just by the space they take up.

ct0517 November 22, 2015 06:27

Oh, I forgot to mention.....that 1 ohm impedance of the Quad 57 at very high frequencies is more of a problem in the load it presents to the amp, rather than in affecting frequency response, I believe. The impedance, plus it's phase angle (this is approaching the limits of my knowledge, but I won't let that stop me ;-), drives some amplifier circuits into instability, causing them to "ring". Not any Music Reference amps, though.

bdp24 November 21, 2015 09:13

Chris, I've heard the ET 8a's, at Brooks Berdan's shop. The change in the b version was to the tweeter and it's cross-over only, which is at the unusually high frequency of 10kHz! The x/o is 1st order (6dB/octave), so there is a lot of overlap between the tweeter strip and the main panel (275Hz-10kHz). One of the great things about the LFT is it's main panel reproducing such a large portion of the sound of music, without a x/o in the 275Hz-10kHz range. Brooks had been an ET dealer for years (selling a lot of the arm, and installing it on Oracle and VPI tables), and considered the ET LFT version (dual-sided magnet structure/push-pull operation, lower moving-mass Mylar drivers, etc.) of the magnetic-planar design superior to Magnepan's. I was an ESL-only kind of guy for years (Brooks admired them too, selling the current Quads), only recently adding the ET's to my system. At only $2500/pr, an excellent value!

bdp24 November 21, 2015 09:01

Owner

Bdp24 - I play my 57's with the back grill and burlap & felt removed.
Yeah - Lots of opinions on this one Eric :^)

from the web. Just a few for fun .......

"According to Peter Walker, the damping was put there primarily to control the Q of the fundamental bass resonance. He didn't seem happy with the idea of removing it."

"IMO, there are no real tweaks to make the Quad ESL perform better. Yes, they can be elevated from the floor to get a more realistic soundstage. This tweak will also give you better mid-bass. The middle of the treble panel should be at ear height.

There are two places with damping material: there are some layers of felt behind the treble panel (the element in the middle) which is there to damp the main resonance of this panel. This resonance is out of the pass band but may be exited by the bass panels and can cause the treble panel dustcover to rattle. This felt should not be removed. Then there is a layer of cloth on the back grill of the speaker which is there to lower the Q of the bass panel resonance. Depending on the room and the state that the ESLs are in, removing this cloth may "improve" bass response or not."

"Dustcovers have nothing to do with it, they are more or less acoustically transparent."

"I think the best way to get the most out of your Quads is to first make sure they are operating in good order and second to move them off the floor and experiment with the proper setup for your room/listening position. Another tweak may be to play them without the front grill."

*****************

on a side note
Martin Logans have the cool factor of the see through panel. Some think they actually sound better with backing installed depending on placement. But then the visual cool - they lose. Eric - your ET LFT8b's same story. Have you ever thought of ordering the 8a panels from Bruce, swapping them in and hearing what they sound like ? The ET LFT8 speakers definitely have the visual cool.

Some Facts, some Observations, some Fun

Quad 57 Frequency response
From the Quad 57 manual - New pair of 57's.
45hz - 18khz Rate of attenuation outside band asymptotic is 18 db / 8ve

Now if we were to assume:

1) One has properly functioning panels.

2) A room that lets them breathe away from the front wall plus angling flexibility. This is very important with the recessed tweeter panel between the bass panels. A total opposite design to the tweeter on top of speaker.

3) An amplifier that deals with the speakers unique very high impedance for Bass, and very low impedance for treble.
Quad ESL Impedance

4) The Person's hearing ability still goes to 18 khz ? Btw - One can test their own hearing here with this really fun youtube.
How good can one hear HF ?

IMO - I think if a person can put check marks on all of the four points above, then these speakers are da bomb.....with a nearfield sub/s :^)

But as one can see many hurdles to cross - Oh no ....I forgot one - maybe the biggest one - WAF.

Having fun with the heater radiators :^)

ct0517 November 20, 2015 16:14

I have a pair of grills for the 57's made by Crosby, the guy known for his Quad 63 mod. It just has a more open "weave" than stock, and I play my 57's with the back grill and burlap & felt removed. My stacked frames have MDF grill frames with cloth stretched across them, covering the naked 57 panels. VERY dangerous voltages inside the 57's!

I at one time also owned a pair of Braun 57's! Peter Walker licensed Braun to make their own version of the 57 for the German market, with the Quad guts in a Braun designed frame. The frame was light gray painted aluminum about 6" deep, that wrapped around the panels, rounded at the four corners like Braun's bookshelf speakers, with integral tubular stands that raised them off the floor. The panels of my pair were shot, and I didn't want to restore another pair, so I sold them to Brooks Berdan for his Hi-Fi museum. I haven't seen them since he died.

bdp24 November 18, 2015 20:00

Owner

Bdp24 - I didn't ask Roger, but I'll bet he worked on the RM-10 until it could provide a flat frequency response when driving the Quad.
Hi Eric, I am anxious to have you hear music with the RM10, and a single pair of your quads. Hurry up, move house and buy an RM10 already ! lol

Perforated Grill

For those like I that run their 57's naked; this is the material recommended by Kent at Electrostatic Solutions if you are worried about children, pets or a clumsy you ....and the voltage involved.

For those reading that might be thinking what all the fuss is about ?

57 Panels

A pic of one of my 57 speakers. You need to keep your body parts away from the panels that the bottom white wires go to. The tweeter panel can be seen in the middle surrounded by two bass panels. This is direct voltage. The only thing in front of the panels after you remove the protective screens, is a saran wrap like clear dust cover.

Bdp24 - There is a new add-on tweeter that may be great with the Quad---the Townshend Audio Maximum Supertweeter. It's gotten great reviews in Britain.
Tweeter

that's $1600 cdn dollars.

I make an assumption that not many in the UK have heard the RM10/Quad 57 combo.

Roger should take a business trip to the UK packing a couple RM10's. Visit a few Quad 57 owners.