Chad, your frequent approximation to the real music and your intimate knowledge of the recording industry raises your audio stock considerably.

I heard Henry's paired with a Supratek Cabernet Duoamps powering the Gallo Ref 3.1. His source was the AMR CD 77. This player is neat in that you can change the oversampling on the fly.

The owner listens with the setting on analog filter alone. I could not tell any difference between that and the 0 filter. The oversampling settings were not bad on his speakers, but definitely second rate.

The overall sound was marvelous.

muralman1 August 28, 2008 16:41

Mapman,
Haha... you could be right there. Although judging by some of the films I have seen lately maybe the idea has some promise! A spoof maybe?

See you on the red carpet.

chadeffect August 28, 2008 10:49

Chad,

Better stick to the recording studio and stay out of writing Marvel comics...

mapman August 27, 2008 18:51

I like the idea of you guys being super hereos. If there is danger Mapman instantly finds a way out with his super map powers and then to distract the evil enemy Muralman paints a beautiful mural to distract them while we escape.

The Scarlatti is extra ordinary in all areas including the price! I cant fault it.
If only it was cheap. I have tried quite a few but nothing was like the DCS. So I stopped although the 2 box EMM labs was good but not a Scarlatti.

chadeffect August 27, 2008 18:47

"I will be open minded to the DCS line"

Me too. I like the line a lot.

If money was no object, I would strongly consider a DCS solution. But the cost of admission for the unique DCS technology also requires a very open wallet as well that I doubt I can justify at this time.

That won't stop me from considering it as a reference standard though when considering my options.

mapman August 27, 2008 17:03

I have done a lot of technical product development work over the years on digital image processing, cartography and related mapping applications. I have implemented some of the same signal processing algorithms that might be applied to digital audio, but have never worked in the audio industry other than as a part time sales guy in a HiFi store years ago.

Digital mapping is fun techno-geek stuff but not very cool or awe inspiring to the masses. Hence my alter ego "mapman".

Oh well, back to the drawing board on that as well!

mapman August 27, 2008 15:32

Chadeffect and Mapman, I will be open minded to the DCS line. They do not use a DAC chip. Since they take a physically unique approach dedicated to preserving the live event, I can't count them out.

I was doing murals when I had to choose a cyber name. Muralman seemed appropriate at the time. I was prompted someone already had that, so I just added a 1.

muralman1 August 27, 2008 14:54

"This player is the most free and dynamic I know. Especially in the highs."

What I heard sounds consistent with this description.

mapman August 27, 2008 13:19

Hi Mapman and Muralman1,
with these names I feel I am talking to some super hereos!

Anyway, I know what you mean by the word smooth, although I dont think that is the correct word for the latest DCS. Rich may be better, and not in a fat way, but in a full of instrument texture and spacial cues way. This player is the most free and dynamic I know. Especially in the highs.

I cant really comment on the way DCS calculates the codes and the effects of their approach. I am sure they have done what they can.

When I had a chance to audition the DCS range I was struck by its utter transparency speed, timing and flow. As you go up the range these improve more and more.

Regarding the B&O amp boards I know there are some developments coming sometime towards the end of the year.

I have mine on order as I cant wait to find out where the improvements will be.

Muralman1 I have some devices inside my amps which deal with some forms of radiation and sonically tidies things up by a worthwhile amount.

DCS were not willing to do this for me, although when the warranty runs out I will have them put them in if they will fit.

I think if you use ERS cloth you have to be very careful as you can over do it very easily. Plus they can short your board too if you are unlucky with the fibers. I have a very small amount of it near power supplies.

chadeffect August 27, 2008 11:15

Muralman1,

Well, its always different strokes for different folks.

I agree though regarding live and smooth. I am often ambivalent in regards to smooth. I do not want artificial rough edges introduced, but want to hear the good bad and ugly of what went into the performance as captured on the recording.

Regarding the DCS Puccini, I was particularly impressed with the delivery of passages involving massed strings. There was something about the timbre and imaging that was very lifelike indeed.

Maybe "clean" would be a better term to describe it than smooth.

THis was with very high end tube amplification, Nordost cables, and the smaller Magico monitor speakers.

I cannot say how much each piece contributed to the end result, but the end result was very detailed and favorable with just a slight dash of tube warmth with minimal or no artificial bloom tossed in. It was a most subtle yet effective mix of the commonbiggest strengths of both SS/digital and tube amplification I thought in regards to detail and microdynamics.

In that the Magicos were still somewhat smaller monitors, the weight and dynamic range that go with a live performance were still not all there, but I found I did not care as much as I normally might otherwise.

The end result was a highly refined sound that I think would appeal to many. It should for what that system cost.

mapman August 27, 2008 04:05

"smooth," now that adjective makes me wince. If you habit live performances, smooth is a rare commodity. The adjectives, exciting, dynamic, and kaleidoscopic come to mind for me more often.

Smooth is a fine audio destination. I just want what's real. When the signal is just let be after decoding the more of it gets through as performed.

muralman1 August 27, 2008 03:26

I've read about the DCS technology. IT is very unique to the best of my knowledge. Audio is a different application, but I can see where sophistication in military signal processing applications could be applied to audio in uniquely distinctive ways that produce very desirable results.

Other than noise removal however, digital signal processing does transform the source signal into something other than what it started as. I believe the DCS processing to be quite unique, hence its inherent value for those who take to what it does. However accomplished exactly with the unique technology applied, when I heard the Puccini on a very good demo system, it sounded like a very good, very analogue-like combination of smooth, natural and detailed.

mapman August 27, 2008 01:28

Yes, I am aware of DCS. Remember, it was developed to do just what we don't want, tag the signal. In the military, you want to be able to relate intelligence back to the source. Whether that subjectively changes the image is of less importance to their priorities.

On the tweaky side, I know a guy who has TACT gear. The little fabrics he placed into his amps did make quite the positive difference. There was a good reason for this. They formed radiation barriers.

You and I are working with amps that are still being improved. I am sure B&O will continue their modules. Their improvement of the 500A module was a happy surprise.

No one is saying they have it perfect. One thing is for sure, I have not heard any conventional amp that isn't worse off getting it right.

muralman1 August 26, 2008 23:07

Hi Murualman1,
very interesting. I have done quite a bit of reading on quantum theory in the past. Particle or wave? The observing of the experiment changing the result and so on. A strange world in the macro.

It was a few years ago now and I am sure the theory has moved on in the last 5 or 10 years since I last studied it.

I went through an interesting phase where I used some PWB products. These very odd products, which included foils that had some kind of quantum idea imprinted on them, were meant to be stuck on various things in the room including the hifi, CD or record. I had some very strange results. Especially when I put some inside the DAC I had at the time. The music took on a presence that was very hard to explain. Something happened and it was striking in a way I had never before experienced or since.

I fear mentioning these sorts of ideas on these pages will lead to abuse and ridicule! But I hear you.

The digital filter has been known as a problem especially phase or ringing wise. I can see how doing away with it has positive effects. There are manufacturers who have found a way to digitally fix the shifting against a control signal. I know DCS has a chip on the output of the laser which is used as a template to check against. I think they are one of the only ones.

DCS use principals used in decoding military radar systems in fighter jets. I believe they write the software. Hence the name Digital Communication Systems. An interesting company.

chadeffect August 26, 2008 22:24

Hi Chad,

Tubes have nothing to do with the better sound IMO. My first NOS DAC had one tiny tube. The bigger one I am now trying has four much bigger tubes. The problem with tubes, as you know, they all have their signature timbre.

The reason the tremendous increase in freedom of the music venue is so apparent is the nature of a DAC with no digital filter.

I see it this way. The signal is an infinitely variable trail of pulses, existing somewhere between a particle and a wave. Oh, that is the definition of radiation.

Quantum physics makes a big deal one cannot so much as observe the very small without changing it.

What the electrical engineers are doing, is taking the very small and extricating a portion of it to place it somewhere else.

Now, according to quantum theory, that will distort the signal. If you could be here, I promise I could demonstrate that to your satisfaction.

muralman1 August 26, 2008 21:26

Hi Mapman and Muralman1,
These new types of amps can power speakers like the difficult to drive planar speakers. Apogees back in the 80s and 90s did suffer from the fact that there were probably only 5 or so manufacturers that even built worthy amps. These were also very expensive at the time and some still are.

I am unsure about the upsampling and non up sampling DAC situation. I got frustrated with many players and ended up with DCS and DSD. I cant say I am a fan of a valve at line level. Although I am sure there are some good ones. I used the Audio aero SE reference which uses subminature valves on the output. It was a good player. Very musical but also upsampling.

Regarding power conditioning I have used both active and passive conditioning. Try the passives first if you use a lot of power or if you can afford it try both.

Regenerate your sources and preamps if possible, then try passive conditioning on the amps. The new PS audio regenerator works well and will run 1500watts. It is better than the old PS ones and doesnt run hot or make nose like the old ones.

I get on very well with the passive Audio Magic Stealth XXX although it has some mods on it. Some say it sounds bright in their system, but I found it was one of the best I have heard. I also have dedicated mains spur too. All sockets are cryod Oyaide which are very nice and have a rich sound. This has helps drop noise and makes things more focused.

The point I was trying to make regarding some of these mods is that you can get a lot of the things people associate with valves, but without the draw backs. It is still on the neutral side of warm. If that makes sense?

chadeffect August 26, 2008 20:06

"It has been reported that power conditioners devour current"

My large Ohms like current too. I still use a basic Monster power condition strip that was in place due to improved results with Dynaudio monitor speaks I had prior (which also despite being small like current as well).

If a conditioner is in fact devouring current, wouldn't that be indicated by them running pretty hot?

mapman August 25, 2008 14:09

Mapman, I'd like to answer that, because of my speaker's are the worst of the lot as power consumers. my Apogee speakers are atrocious pigs. They are 1 ohm, and 76 Db sensitivity. People have been using energy wasting class A Krells and the like. The speakers got a bad reputation about having a bloated bass, and lack of presence. These are the same attributes alloted poorly powered speakers. Now, with the class D amps I use, this pig of an Apogee has a tight bass, and powerful presence.

muralman1 August 25, 2008 14:05

Muralman1,

Intuitively, what you're saying makes sense to me. It may not matter though to those that like a "smoother" more "tube-like" sound though. Still, it is an interesting premise upon which to experiment and hear for oneself.

I've been researching DACs and though I understand the ramifications, I am not sure which approach would work more to my liking, oversampling or no. I tend to like a smooth but detailed sound like that produced by better tube systems, and understand the benefits of oversampling, but with my current setup, I have not out ruled that I might be better off with a good dac that foregoes the oversampling and just does a good job of delivering the content that is actually there.

Thanks.

mapman August 25, 2008 14:00

Hi Chad,

It has been reported that power conditioners devour current. Since my speakers are very hungry for current, I have not used them. Maybe newer designs don't.

As can be read on other discussions, I have found that class D amps match perfectly with non-oversampling DACs. These have no digital filters. Whereas with solid state amps NOS DACs can sound rounded off, an sodden, that is the fault of the amps. Tube amps benefit from NOS DACs. I have heard great SET systems that utilize NOS DACs. Class D amps, with equally revealing preamps, will exhibit much more detail, trail off of notes, and depth when the source is NOS.

Have you tried NOS DACs in conjunction with your Evo?

muralman1 August 25, 2008 13:46

Also, doesn't Class D/ICE with its ability to deliver lots of power cost effectively and handle difficult loads make products like Apogees viable for more people?

My understanding is that the prime downside to Apogee's design was that there were few amps around at the time that could drive them properly.

Same true of the Ohm Walsh design as well, the older models from the 70's, the As and Fs, in particular.

mapman August 25, 2008 13:43

Class D amps have arrived from what I read. There are as many authoritative positive reviews for Class D products these days as any other viable technology. personal tastes and biases will always come into play, but that's a normal thing.

Were I to take the plunge for a "bigger" amp, the BC REf 1000 and , if I might afford it, the new Rowland Class D gear would have to be considered at the top of the list from what I have read. I'm sure class D would sound great and my power bills would like it as well. My only concern might be potential for RF interference if not addressed adequately, but my understanding is that many of the better newer class D designs have a handle on this.

mapman August 25, 2008 13:23

After reading some of the posts above I was struck by the accusing nature and finger pointing aspects. And thats just me! Although quite entertaining.

We should be here to help each other and ourselves get the best out of the gear we have. Especially if some are more experienced than others. I guess this is where the problems start.

Maybe I shall start on the subject that has caused some of the discord.

OK! ICE power (sorry Flo) especially BC REF1000 ICE power amps...

They are very very transparent. I have found to bring out the layering and "tube like" sweetness and fluidity you have to look after the power supply by feeding clean power first. This will bring more focus and better frequency extremes.

Once that is done, gold is your key to richness! What I mean by that is replace the power inputs and outputs on your filter and wall socket with gold type contacts (for ouputs I use Oyaide ones). This brings out the timbre and gives more solid imaging and weight. Especially with Oyaide ones.

Input is more difficult as few manufacturers make them in gold. Furutech make one with screw down terminals. This is a double bonus as you can bypass the terrible cheap switch and the many tin spade connectors between the switch and the board (you control on/off from your filter).

Just these simple changes will bring a focus and warmth in the midrange and air to the treble that brings performers into your room with great naturalness if you have the resolution in the first place. For those of you who find these amps dry or mechanical in the treble or unnatural somehow start here with proper interconnects and cabling.

If anyone cares or is interested I will post the other simple ways I have found to bring these ICE boards to audiophile life. These extra ordinary amps show up EVERYTHING in the chain.

(Take great care wiring up your sockets correctly and make sure the power is off and so on. Its not worth dying for!)

chadeffect August 25, 2008 08:50

HI Mapman,
tell me what it reads and I will find you something. Wavs/Aifs/etc?

chadeffect August 23, 2008 17:46

The Roku Soundbridge on my system might be able to do it. It can play over a network connection from a music server (haven't tried this yet, I use it solely for Internet radio to-date), but not sure about that format.

I'll find a way to play it one way or another though.

Thanks!

mapman August 23, 2008 17:37