Carl, no one here was arguing any Apogee vs. the Grand, except Florian. This is Chad's system site. We are just saying, it is not good manners to criticize a system you haven't heard. Just because someone has owned one Apogee or another, doesn't mean they know what they sound like, other than with the system they heard it with anyway.

My own system has changed dramatically with the adjustments I made over the last two years. I still have the same amps. Chad is agreeing with me. Through trial and error, Chad says he has harnessed a marvelous sound from his class D amps. He should know. He is there.

muralman1 August 21, 2008 21:43

Although it's always fun to watch Vince and Florian wrangle, I don't know that the Grand's efficiency can be so easily dismissed or placed to a single efficiency. Most Apogees are rated at 3 meters into the room, not the usual 1 meter, and their volume falls off in a more linear manner rather than to the square of linear distance. Also, the Grand uses an active crossover, which increases efficiency, and separate amps for each frequency band. It also has more powerful magnets than any other traditional Apogee, which should make it far more efficient. I think the 84db efficiency spec is guesswork based on other large Aps if not just erroneous. When I heard Grands many years ago in an enormous room, they were ear splittingly loud and very dynamic. However, I don't know that anything can compete with horns but other horns. On the other hand, what you hear with horns is often the horn itself rather than the source.

cjfrbw August 21, 2008 21:04

Florian,
the studio grand is 84 or 85db/watt planar speaker, built to take maybe 400w if you are lucky.

You have no hope in hell of dynamics like an full horn system. Have you heard a proper 100db/watt or over horn speaker ever?

You could never put enough power through your Apogee to compete. Try to put a few thousand watts through your Apogee and you will have a nice warm Apogee fire. It would just melt.

chadeffect August 21, 2008 19:38

spl
now an apogee has quite a bit of radiation pattern (being a large planar ) we will assume 130db or thereabout at 1 metres

it gets a bit more complicated as apogee claims an 84 db sensitivity as dB = 10 x log (P1 ÷ P0)

the result is a bit more complicated as you will need roughly 5000 watts if you are sitting at about 7 metres or 22 foot from the speakers and want to achieve 100db peaks at listning position .... and thats for an 8 ohm loudspeaker (hardly a grand spec ) .thats assuming you have a pair of grand with a bit of room gain (ie not anechoic ) and still have about 4 db of headroom gain (shit double the power before clipping )

then i suggest i come armed with an amp capable of such specs and plug it to your apogee and see how they like it

to claim such an absurdity as "can compete with fully blown horn system " is pretty shameful for a seasoned audiophile like you
i have seen this claim (no graphs from an audio suite mind you ) on other sites

on the other hand you will need around 15-18 watts on a fully blown horn system (certain goto. onken ,ag trio ) to reach the same results
sound reinforcement companies dont use horns on concerts just cos they like the look of them you know !!!!
the grand does not go loud and its certainly a pig to drive .i think that what you describe as loud is what i refer to as modest in the spl world

at 130 db .the grand will simply turn into a rice crispies sheet .
now there is also the possibility that the spec sheet was total fib
5000 watts plus into an apogee ...... give me a break

esotheric August 21, 2008 18:20

Praise Florian. give me your coordinates. I want to know which direction to set my prayer rug.

muralman1 August 21, 2008 17:37

Dear Esotheric,

long story short:

I own currently Apogee Stage, Apogee Caliper, Apogee Grand

I used to own Apogee Scintilla and Apogee DIVA

... The Scintilla, DIVA, Caliper and Grand have NEW ribbons. The ribbons in my Grand are unique as they are made specifically for the magnetic field! One of a kind, uniqe and special order from Graz. I used both stock passive and new active crossovers.

I dont believe you know the Grand, but thats ok, almost noone does as it was never for sale in a store etc.. While the Fullrange was 18K the Grand cost more then 85K and was to special order only. 17 pair exist and only 8 owners worldwide.

With over 6 KW of power, fully active crossover network with display, remote control and a 4 way system employing 2 Krell Master Reference Subwoofers it makes the Fullrange sound like a toy!

No offense, i love all Apogees and own many. And i wish Chad and Vince a lot of fun with their systems, but i been there and know their limits while they do not. No offense!

PS: The Grand does over 120db per side at 4 meter distance, from 7.5Hz on up (measured in room - my room)..... For "real" comments about this system search for the user "Morricab" under the Planar Asylum and Apogee Grand. He heard a pair actually.

I agree that most Apogees cannot with real power and dynamics put a drumset in your room. The Grand is very uniqe and can easily hold a match to a fully blown horn system.

Cheers

florianw August 21, 2008 14:57

but .i seen it with my own eyes ,you said that replacement ribbons and x-over was not needed .chad showed me the conversation .
i didnt assume anything ,you made a point that stock was best
now ,if you changed things up ,than you are almost there i think
in my opinion "gulp!" you can go even further by ditching the speakers all together for something a little more lifelike
to me dynamics are the life and soul of the music
my preference tend to be around realistic spl levels .
listening to a drum kit on an apogee just does not cut it for my taste .... way to polite
if in doubt .invite someone with a drum kit or a trumpet in you listening room ,same distance as your speakers ,and give it a bash .i dont think you will be too impressed with anything apogee made in the dynamics dept
i seem to remember graz talking about a speaker he makes in the 100 db w/m range .now we talking !!! have you experienced hi eff ribbons ? i dont mean 92 93 db .more like 99 101 db

esotheric August 21, 2008 13:04

Florian,

I like our little conversations.

I have not positioned myself with anyone I believe. I did not realize if I had an opinion, or spoke to any specific person, I was part of one group or another.

As to your great experience, maybe you have more or less than me. That we shall never really know. You do not sound like you have any meaningful experience. To be honest it is not something that concerns me. Your unhappiness and deep need to be right says it all. Audiophilia can be terrible obsessive illness.

You do seem to forget I am a professional. I live in recording studios and have access to music long before it gets mastered and put out on whatever format. Long before it is dithered down to consumer rates in stereo or surround.

The colorations and nuances we are listening to in our respective Hifi systems are tiny in comparison to the ability of the gear I use each day.

You want valves? I can give you valves. You want more width or depth in your soundstage? Easy. You want more weight at 50hz or better highs? No worries.

This is why I dont think you fully understand what your gear is really doing. You have only heard a source which you have had no part in creating on it. I dont think you have heard the source while it was being recorded to know why it sounds this or that way. All you have heard, I believe, is music through this speaker or that etc.

I believe the point is to get as close to the original performance as is possible. This does not mean what sounds best to you in your room every time.

The reasons you dont like this amp or that speaker is down to a set of small, but important details. All of which can be fixed to a point ,especially if you know what you are looking for. Your needs probably differ to mine, but I bet not by that much.

Unless you have changed your front end gear recently, all you have done is open a giant window onto your system which isnt up to your speaker. This will only ever show up every distortion and imbalanced thing in your chain as you know with all your experience. This is why it is a hopeless cause to argue. Just travel down the path do what you can.

I like you Florian. You have gone for it. Good for you. I have to. The problems my system faced have been isolated and dealt with as best as can be done today. Cant you respect that? It is all fun for me.

You didnt get on with an amp and have been bugging me ever since. Maybe you just missed something? I have had many many amps and incarnations of systems, some way beyond what you have had. You feel, as do some others that something in the treble of my amp could be better. It is not a problem. There are ways to solve it, even with my speakers! All other amps have many faults too. It is just a question of what you are willing to put with?

chadeffect August 21, 2008 10:35

Thank you, i think the same about you and Vince too!
You position yourself and your opinions and state them as facts while i dont think you are in a position to do so. You talk about new ribbons, crossovers, class-d etc... i have been there, done that.

You just dont like it that when it comes to new ribbons, crossovers and apogees i simply dont take your "word" for it....because my experience is much vaster then yours or Vinces. And you dont like that....well..too bad!

florianw August 21, 2008 06:35

Florian you are an idiot. You dont need to try so hard my friend. We all love the Apogee.

I am sure you have a large pistol in your trousers.

We have all worked hard to bring the best out of the speakers we have. Just enjoy it. I do as do my friends who come over to listen.

You dont find me on your page telling you that you cannot be taken seriously because you dont have a decent CD player or have the low noise floor I have.

Mine IS better than yours. Who cares?

Now suddenly you are a Graz fan... I told you all along. Remember? You used to believe it made no difference etc. Enjoy and relax. Find a girl.

chadeffect August 20, 2008 20:01

Dear Esotheric,

i own the Nr.7 Apogee Acoustics GRAND. I used to own Apogee Caliper, DIVA, Scintilla and more. My dedicated listening room is 40 feet long and 28 feet wide. It is backed up by a 160 Ampere @ 230Volt line for 8 amplifiers. All of my Apogees use new GRAZ ribbons, my Apogee Grand uses GRAZ Meridian Mapped Ribbons ( one of a kind, the ribbon is made specifically for the magnetic field in my Grands).

Please, dont asume things about me. Feel free to write me at [email protected]

PS: My experience with Apogees, new ribbons and crossovers is far higher then Chads, Vinces etc...

florianw August 20, 2008 05:30

hi . i sold chad both the duetta and the diva . i am the mate he speaks of re the lyngdorf
i was a dealer for apogee in late 80s .did all the line up but the in wall gear
no matter what people will tell you .an original apogee ,ie stock everything will never hold a candle to an upgraded apogee with new tech ribbon and reworked crossover ,it is not even close
i have personally owned 2 full ranges system , the subs never really worked for me
florian if your afr is stock .you cannot even comment
on the other hand you might think that chad setting out is crap ..... i listened to it again 2 weeks ago
now , you might think iam biased ,but with 17 years behind the counter of a hiend outlet ,an extremly hard to please nature .if you could show me a speaker that cheap that can perform to that level ,than i am ordering a 7.1 set for my cinema

esotheric August 19, 2008 15:15

Florian now??? Don't understand it is very bad manners to enter a virtual system to throw eggs? That is why they call it a, "Virtual System." page. It is not one you can listen to. Complaining about the sound of a system you can't hear is, to be nice about it, ridiculous

I have heard Full Range speakers complete with special crossovers and powered by very fine hybrid amp. It is my opinion it is no contest with what I am hearing here. I can say that, because I have heard both. You have heard neither. There are plenty of people who consider the Scintilla to be the most true sounding speakers bar none, including your buddy, Graz. The Duetta is a very very fine speaker capable of producing fabulous sound. I loved mine.

All the Grand speakers are subwoofer augmented. I would never go there. You love it, and that is just great. I have a neighbor that loves house shaking bass. He uses Studio Grands plus REL subs. More power to him. He loves it and that is good enough for me too.

muralman1 August 12, 2008 11:48

Hi Florian,
long time no hear. Hope you are well and have been enjoying some nice resolution.

You have always been so down on the duetta sig. Its a great speaker and works very well. Its not a Apogee fullrange, but it is not shoe horned into my listening room either.

As I live in one of the most expensive cities on the planet, space is an issue, but the listening room measures approx 6.3m x 5.2m. It has a high ceiling around 2.9m.

One speaker is slightly in a corner, but due to the angle it has little effect. Though the room correction has helped. The work done on these Duetta sigs is extremely fine and it is being feed the best signal I can supply.

I am glad you mentioned the Diva as I have a pair being rebuilt now with new graz ribbons etc. They should be completed soon. The crossover is being filled with mundorf gold in oil caps and copper foil inductors. I will post my findings when they are run in.

I am glad you enjoyed the quote.

You have forgotten that the only bit remaining from the original Apogees in mine are the frames. So I guess you couldnt really say they were from the mid 80s although the date marked is nov 1989.

I believe you too were having new ribbons made for yours. As you will notice these latest ribbons Graz makes are far better than the original and give a great speaker a level of refinement, and a sound so much freer than they could have dreamt of 20 years ago. Jason Bloom would be loving it I am sure.

Maybe the quote should be" Super cars from the 70s and 80s NOT brought up to modern specs can be easily beaten by modern family cars"!

You told me you had some very bad experiences with some amps on your full range. It is a very tricky load, I am sure you would agree, and is terribly inefficient. Maybe whatever you tried could not cope. I am sure there are many that can. Maybe bi or tri amping would solve it if not. I know your front end was probably not up to the rest of the system which wouldnt help the result either.

You are more than welcome to borrow my amps anytime. I would be glad to hear how you get on with them. To be honest you dont need the greatest speaker in the world to notice how good they are.

chadeffect August 12, 2008 10:52

I guess this is me. When both of you have "reached" a speaker that can actually tell you what all your stuff is doing, we can talk again. Both of you have "good" but not best or let alone "ultimate" speakers, neither the rooms or acoustics. Chads room is way too small and the placement is crap! Vince has a decent room but horrible acoustics.

Both of you "display" and attitude that is frustrating. Thats why you BOTH talk to each other, but noone else replys. LOL

PS: The Duetta while great has a LOONG way to go up the line (DIVA, Scintilla, Fullrange, Studio Grand etc....

PS for Vince: Your Scinitllas are great, but they aint no Fullrange.....let alone anything more complex and larger. You "asume" you know what sounds real, but your speakers can never play "real"...... simply not possible from your speakers.

Quote of the day "The greatest super cars from the 1970s and 80s would easily be beaten by an average modern family car these days."

<---- and what does an mid-80's midrange speaker from Apogee do with super modern class D amps?

florianw August 12, 2008 04:43

Muralman1,
I have had the same experience too. As you know I have had a few "run ins" with the person I believe you mean. Some of it via email, some on the gon. Much has been removed by audiogon. He was very threatened by the idea of it being "better". But technology move on and fast. You cant hold on to the past.

The greatest super cars from the 1970s and 80s would easily be beaten by an average modern family car these days.

All I can say is the ICE amps are still plugged in. Many pieces of gear have come and gone, but the ICE powered Ref1000s have stayed.

I hope this technology will help stop the elitist idea that you need to spend lots of money and collect obscure gear to get great sound quality.

Maybe it will stop the Highend audio from completely dying out and open it to more people. Class D and switching type amps are here to stay.

Soon with the global pressures on fuel and pollution, I wouldnt be surprised if inefficient electronics will be outlawed or too expensive to use or just taxed to death. We need efficient great sounding gear. I think these amps prove there is hope. I wonder what will come next?

chadeffect August 08, 2008 14:34

Your last paragraph says it all. The worst of it are questionably respectable audio forum contributors blanketing all class D amps as crap. I know for a fact one of the most vociferous preachers (one you know of) uses a midfy source in judging all class D amps. That is a prescription for failure, and I can't say it isn't purposeful.

The sound I have has changed dramatically over the last four years. Funny thing is my class D amps have never left. All the midfy crap had to go one at a time when I could afford it. With every improvement, a very noticeable layer of distortion was lifted. Every system detail is paramount. My almost naked ribbon SCs popped the cherry.

muralman1 August 08, 2008 12:13

Hi Muralman1,

I had my first brush with Bel canto with the EVO gen2 tripath amps. At the time I had 5 or 6 other amps including Audio research VT150monos(the most soulful of amps), Plinius SA reference, Audio Valve Baldur 300, Gamut D200mk2. I was struck by the transparency of the BC Evos. It really was the least colored amp of the bunch. The Gamut was nice too.

When the BC REF1000s came out I had the Jeff Rowland 501monos and when the BC arrived I plugged it in and I have never really looked back other than a couple of mods to the REF1000s.

The ICE power really brought all the rewards of expensive highend amplification in a small box that was extremely powerful and sounded fantastic. Super fast in the way the Halcro DM series is(DM series amps are disturbingly good). The Ref1000 has lots of leading edge information, with a super wide soundsatge. It has no sound or signature that I can detect. The simple mods I have had done have only made it more itself. Bringing more detail and cleaner definition. I feel sorry for other traditional amp manufacturers, as to compete with that performance at that price will be very tough. I couldnt have wished for a better amp. Sorry if I am gushing but I wasted an awful amount of money on expensive gear which now can be beaten in performance by a cheap simple and small ICE based amp. Highend for the masses!

I have seen a few people saying these amps are bad and have all these problems sonically. I can only assume it is showing them their system as it really is. I have found no weakness. I guess if you want coloration buy a different amp. If you want to hear your source buy the BC ref1000s or find a lot more money and by Halcro DM88s.

chadeffect August 08, 2008 07:50

Hi Chad, after rereading some earlier posts, they leave a bit of mystery. When did you switch to the Bel Canto? What are the plusses and minuses switching from conventional amps?

Have you been surprised by the magnitude of your component changes with the Bel? Like you found with your Source change, ICE improves dramatically, far more than would be noticed in conjunction with conventional amps. I think what this new amp technology does, is reveal ever more of upstream anomalies. The better the source, the more invisible the system becomes to the music. That has been my experience.

muralman1 August 07, 2008 12:15

One other note on the Lyngdorf room correction. The bypass "sound" is not exactly the same as the unit being removed. I have noticed a roundness and slight fattening in the bass when compared to the box being completely removed.

The corrected sound though is still outstanding.

chadeffect August 07, 2008 08:28

Ok my impressions of the latest room correction by Lyngdorf. It was supplied clean electricity via filtered mains. The interconnects were by Analysis plus golden oval (balanced XLRs).

wow it works. It works very well indeed. As the unit burnt in the soundstage became more open and detailed and focused. Similar to the addition of the clock. The bass became supremely tuneful and easy to follow.

When the correction was bypassed it became obvious that there was no going back to the sound I had been enjoying before correction. It rendered many aspects of my old sound unlistenable, especially in the bass.

My main worry was that introducing another box on the output of my extremely hi end player would wreck its sound. While there may be the very slightest muting in the highs, it had little or no effect on the its sound. What has been gained is worth any loss IMO.

The other filter options are audiophile fun which will keep you up all night as you play your music collection and select your favourite presets. These presets sound similar to the Audio magic filter matching settings on their power conditioning units, but a little more obvious to the ear. But for me the neutral focus setting was best on the whole.

chadeffect August 04, 2008 16:01

I have been trying out some room correction by Lyndorf today. A good audiophile mate has been hassling me to try it out for ages. So here I am.

I have a pretty nice and well balanced system, so what could it do for me? Well I think the main thing to say is tidy things up. It didnt alter much in my room, but the bass is the largest improvement. It has cleaned it up enough to make for a tight listen. Especially at higher volumes.

I will post more as I flick through the many filter/correction options. But so far nothing bad to report and only an improvement in an already well set up system. Who would have thought it?

chadeffect July 28, 2008 09:49

Haha Tab!

It used to have a very nice rack, but it took up so much space and my room was starting to look like a hifi show room with cables everywhere. So I decided to build it all into the fire place and get my floor back. Not only that but I was becoming a real geek!

If you look closely you will see all the equipment is individually suspended from vibration even in such a tight space. It also has its own regulated and filtered 60 amp mains spurs with oyaide sockets... did mention geek!

chadeffect June 30, 2008 06:43

Your system deserves a great rack.

tabl10s June 29, 2008 00:16

Yes my cousin had an all Linn system including a 2 box player. I cant remember which in the range it was though.

I was not a fan. It had good dynamics but slightly sterile and grainy from memory. Not refined in the same way. But I cant say how old it was. This was maybe 2-3 years ago. I will find out which model it was.

He replaced all of it with less expensive stuff and got much better sound.

He changed amps to Bel cantos tripath evo gen2 monos and a Stello transport and dac/preamp. It was surprisingly good.

chadeffect June 26, 2008 05:23